Concerned Students of McGill

The accusations made in this petition are baseless and serve only to further discredit those powers which oppose dialouge on BDS. This petition is no true call for equal representation in discussion on this topic, it is an attempt to silence any discourse whatsoever. Your reference to the "extensive debate" at the October GA is laughable, as the debate you are referring to never occured. Debate at that venue was silenced before it could even take place just as these petitioners look to silence the upcoming event. You make the implicit statement that the SSMU hosting this discussion is a show of support for the cause of BDS and serves to isolate members of the student community but that certainly isn't the case. What this event is aimed to do is allow exactly that discussion which was silenced to take place, to inform students about the implications of BDS, and to stop the isolation of an historically oppressed group who hold views contrary to the status-quo at McGill. It is significant that an expert on South African apartheid will speak at this event, and that leads me to question if you would have liked for any discussion on BDS South Africa to have included the racist supporters of the South African regime. Of course, such an idea is ludicrous. The oppressed and the oppressor do not hold equal power, and to claim that giving the oppressed a venue to express their opinions without the interference of the oppressor is unfair in any way, as if the forces are symmetrical in a situation where the power dynamics at play are certainly not at equilibrium, is to usurp the language of social justice only to further marginalize and silence the victims of power abuses. The people of the McGill community are intelligent, and I am certain they will see through your misleading use of language to recognize the fascist historical precedent of such a petition.  

#1: Sean Nossek - The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 It is incredible how so many university-educated individuals hold the extremely simplistic idea that the underdog is always right in any conflict.

There is so much complexity to the story, that the passion behind this particular BDS movement - of ONLY Israel, the world's only Jewish state - strikes me as nothing more than pure anti-semitism, or oversimplified "underdogma" - the belief in the perpetual correctness and moral superiority of the underdog in every struggle.

its rather hypocritical for you to be whining that people want to shut down "dialogue" on BDS, when the entire point of BDS to remove the ability to even have a dialogue. How can there be a discourse when you want to shut down one sides ability to speak?

Bds is not about anything other than jew hate, even anti Israel people like finklestein have spoken up against it. the truth is that anyone who supports BDS supports bigotry and prejudice directed at one segment of the student population, its about isolating and marginalising jews. frankly as a Canadian I am disgusted by this. 

SAY NO TO BDS IN CANADA

#1: Sean Nossek - The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 Your vast array of words are penned quite nicely, but ultimately, this is going to come down to justice! This petition is about abolishing an injustice. Demonizing Israel and categorizing her as an apartheid state just shows that you know (believe to know) very little about Israel's history and current policy. I've lived there and shared my home with both Jews & Muslims. Jewish Israelis as well as Muslim Palestinians. You my friend are a brain washed / wanna be intellect who thinks he knows so much better than what reality is. Palestinians love Israel and love Jewish people. They hate their tyrant leaders!! Israel does not discriminate against anyone. It is the only democracy in the entire Middle East. And yes, it was founded via violence and bloodshed, like almost every other democracy on god's green earth. So with that being said, go open up a book and study for whatever exam you have coming up and leave the important issues to the adults. 

#2: Alex - Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

Mr. Alex Anonymous,

To hide discourse behind claims of complexity (in situations with very simple and real abuses of power) is no just stand to take. It is a stand for the status-quo, regardless of the merits of the parties involved.

I make no such assertion that "the underdog is always right", I will however assert that the more powerful actor cannot be in the right if they use this position to violate the basic rights of your "underdog", though I'd much prefer if we were more candid and spoke of them as the oppressed.

You'll notice that I don't even comment at all on who I know is "right" (though I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for you to guess), I do however say that it cannot be considered unfair to give voice to those who are oppressed and face an advantaged adversary. To do so would be to commit the fallacy of considering the parties equal, which is not the case. The only "simplisitic idea" held here is exactly that, the conflating of an oppressed group with the structural position of the oppressor. In your cookie-cutter world all issues might divide evenly down the middle with a straight line, but in my world they are divided by concrete walls, machine gun towers, and check-points. They are landscapes of despair juxtaposed against those of priveledge, wealth, and abuse.

Even more, to make baseless claims of anti-semitism in an attempt to discredit legitimate concerns is nothing short of slander, and I am truly disgusted by the use of such emotional and religous appeals to garner support. This is "playing dirty" in every sense of the term, and advantages none but those who actually deserve to be considered anti-semitic as they become lost in crowd of groups labelled so only for political reasons.

what you are arguing for , is the removal of one sides voice, and to claim that Israel is the more powerful entity is to avoid admitting that the "palestinians" are not fighting on their own behalf, they are merely pawns in a much larger conflict, always have been

#4: Amisraelchai - Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 Is it I who is brainwashed, or the recipient of government administered hasbara? It is incredibly ignorant to share an anecdote in the face of an opposing reality. Perhaps you have interacted with Palestinians in Israel. Did you travel with them on the bus? Did you see them treated in your hospitals? Have you attended a Palestinian wedding in Israel? 

More likely they laboured on the side of the road as you drove by, or passed you in separate busses as under one of over 50 discriminatory Israeli laws those are now segregated. Even more likely than that, they laid dying in understaffed and damaged Gazan hospitals, banned from travel to the high-tech institutions across the wall by the Israeli security state.

It is undeniable that the forging of the modern state system was one of great bloodshed, but to posit the experience of Israel as part of the norm is an egregious lie. Most states were not formed through ethnic cleansing, and in the instances of colonization where they were this took place many decades before the Geneva Convention epoch of the Nakba. Even more, the commencement ceremonies of Israeli universities surely don't include references to the previous inhabitants of the land or expositions of their culture as they do at institutions like McGill where similar situations of colonization and cleansing occured.

I feel it is entirely unnecessary to respond to the claim that "Palestinians love Israel and love Jewish people. They hate their tyrant leaders!! Israel does not discriminate against anyone." Such a statement serves just to further expose your own deep delusions, and I would only ask that you considered the extended families of the 1,500 civilians killed this summer in Israel's lawn-mowing campaign in Gaza., and how much they love the Israeli Security Forces, or any resident of besieged Gaza for that matter.

Leave your demeaning insults of childishness to the ignorant spouters of white washed anecdotes like yourself.

#7: Sean Nossek - Re: Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 what is incredibly ignorant is to suggest that Palestinians live in conditions that are remotely as "terrible" as you suggest. you mention 50 discriminatory laws, feel free to post them and the context under which they may have been written.  why are Gaza hospitals understaffed and damaged? and if they are banned from going to the hospital why is that the leader of Hamas's own family has been treated at Israeli hospitals?

actually Israel was not formed through bloodshed or ethnic cleansing, Israel is actually a case study in what happens when indigenous people retake their ancestral lands. in fact there are over 1.6 million arabs living inside Israel with full equal rights, how many jews in the PA and Gaza?

feel free to detail Palestinian cultural contructs, that might justify your opinion that Palestinians have absolutely anything in common with indians, Indians are indigenous to Canada, Jews are indigenous to judeah, and arabs are indigenous to arabia.

#6: Ryan - Nossek 

 What an especially appalling way to dehumanize an oppressed population. I can assure you that scores of thousands of Palestinians (and no, I will not line this word with quotation marks) would take their description as mere pawns in a geo-political game with serious offense. This kind of language of realpolitik belongs in the dark ages where it was spawned. Furthermore, the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who struggle tirelessly for such basic rights as self-determination and the freedom from state violence would beg to differ with your assertion that "'Palestinians' [sic] are not fighting on their own behalf." I am baffled by the claim that I am arguing for "the removal of one sides [sic] voice," when it is exactly this that I seek to combat.

EDIT: I should note that I do in fact have other duties to tend to, and as I have yet to encounter anyone seriously interested in dsicussion without the use of slanderous claims and fabricated realities I find it appropriate at this point to cease responding in such an unfruitful debate.

#7: Sean Nossek - Re: Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 NOT on the bus? So THIS never happened?
JPost

Don't forget that the Palestinians continually fight for independence from their "Jewish captors", which is why the Palestinians Area A are managed and administered and policed and serviced by the Palestinians themselves. Or do you want to reverse this decision and take away the Palestinian independent rule?

They are NOT treated in hospitals? So this is all fake?
JPost

It is undeniable that I am Israeli, and I HAVE SEEN some of these occurrences' remains, and I HAVE SEEN BUSES EXPLODE BY SUICIDE BOMBERS RIGHT NEXT DOOR (literally at the corner of my street before they put up the barrier wall which now prevents these from repeating), I experienced Code Red alarms multiple times in Desert Storm, 2nd Lebanon War, 1st Gaza War, 2nd Gaza War, and now the 3rd Gaza War, and on a random rocket bombing in the middle of the night for no reason that also hit me and I KNOW what happens when we let Jewish people drive near Palestinian residences:
JPost
And from history the horrors that happen when they simply enter Palestinian areas in the 2000 Ramallah lynching (Google for it, there are MANY links).

You, sir, are extremely inconsiderate of the horrors that happen and the young Adele Bitton (4 years old, who now died from a rock that hit her, rest in peace :( ) and many many other people who were injured or killed by the Palestinian attacks, Sean Nossek.

#1: Sean Nossek - The Fallacy of Symmetry 

Here's an old idea, the Palestinians ARE oppressed... Here's an old idea (you reject because it doesn't fit your narrative)... they are oppressed by Hamas and their Arab brethren who treat them like sh*t and perpetrate ACTUAL APARTHEID on them. And here's a new idea... Israel is also oppressed- by the same groups; oppressed, terrorized and bullied daily. Can you wrap your head around any new ideas, or are you just programed to blow out your perverted version of justice? And as for your accusation that this petition looks to silence debate, that is a patent lie. time and again, BDS supporters on campus either boo, walk out, or bully and harass pro-Israeli students. Pull your head out Sean, you've been deceived.

#2: Alex - Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 Agree Alex, it's  sad to see how many people are brainwashed  and don't understand the whole story. 

I  not surprised though, not all educated people are intellengt...

Those who yell Israel is an apartheid state...need to learn the definition of this word and a good history lesson!!! I hear a lot of academics foam at the mouth like rabid animals speaking out in regards of the so called 'apartheid' in Israel...yet they have never visited Israel to witness it for themselves....it's funny really..since Israel gives her citizens the freedom to vote..hence democratic state...(just in case it slipped someone's mind

#5: Sean Nossek - Re: Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 haha oh Alex, playing the anti-semtic card are we? I love how being against a state and its actions can be racist, Jews cant seem to figure it out that its the goverment people are opposing not the people.

#18: concerned Mcgill Student - Re: Re: Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 Are you blind? This boycott attempt is of only ONE country. Despite the fact that most of the countries in the world had bloodier beginnings, including the one we are living in now.

The targeting of the world's ONLY Jewish State, and making it comply to higher standards than any other country in the world including the U.S., is inherently antisemitic (or "judeophobic" if you want to pull the semantics card on me). There is no other country in the entire world whose very existence is even called into question except Israel, which to me is indicative of nothing more than antisemitism. I'm not even sure why I have to keep repeating this eleventy billion times.

MUST WATCH!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ReF4UUa4E

#18: concerned Mcgill Student - Re: Re: Re: The Fallacy of Symmetry 

 You do realize you just said "Jews can't seem to figure it out."

This is exactly the type of language which prompts us Jews to call out bigotry like yours. Good job making a hypocritical statement against antisemitism by being antisemtic. Mazel Tov!

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. 
"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."  

-PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977, interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw

The Palestinian leadership, including Ahmed Shukar and Yasir Arafat, has openly admitted Palestinian "peoplehood" is a fraud.

With your tax money...

Which side are you on?